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Online Share Trading

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Property Finance and Asset management.

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barry_1
Super Contributor
Go to Company News 11/06/09 for the latest news on Redefine,LBT and home owbers that pay rent.Interesting read.
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27 REPLIES 27
barry_1
Super Contributor
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louisg
Super Contributor
Hi Barry. I find this part particularly interesting. I understand that you have been investing in PUTS/PLS's for a while. Is it also your experience that income can make up to 85 % of the return on property over the long term (>10 years)? Schaefer says many property owners will realise that income is the dominant factor in property investment and wealth creation. "Recently risk manager Lightstone showed in a property annual that net income made up about 50% of the return on property investments in less than five years," notes Schaefer. "And institutional investors with large property portfolios will tell you that income can make up 85% of the return on property over 15 or 20 years - far outweighing capital gain. "The loss of that rental income to a homeowner doesn't eliminate an investment contribution by his property. But it turns the home into a comfort or lifestyle purchase rather than a serious investment. OER (Owners equivalent rent) will bring that point to the fore."
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john_1
Super Contributor
So what you saying is only a second home is a real property investment?
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Not applicable
Oooh boy, looks like we have another 'merits of property investment' thread starting up - but i do agree that property for capital gain is not a safe investment. The last 5 years were an exception. I don't agree on the statement that owning a property and the loss or rental, doesn't translate to income. Rental inflation will always outstrip your bond repayments in the long term. And owning your own paid off property when you retire has to be a priority for everyone - seriously!!
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barry_1
Super Contributor
Hello,yes your insight is completely correct ....to give an example on the commercial side.My late father bought the first property unit trust ever at its start in 1983 then called Standard Property Trust,now called FPT.The units were then worth one rand each and in twenty six years the capilal has only risen to around R5.50.Not great,but after twelve years holding the interest on the original investment amount had risen to a staggering 38%.Stupid me of course when i inherited,decided to sell,ah well water under the bridge1
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louisg
Super Contributor
I've looked FPT back 10 years, and have calculated the following: The share price was at 173c and is now 563c. That's an annual compounded increase of 12.52%. All the interest paid out over the last 10 years is 358c, just over twice the original purchase price. The total gain equals 748c. An annual compounded increase of 15.77%. Not too shabby even in real terms. The above excludes the affects of costs and taxes of course.
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barry_1
Super Contributor
Yes a real eye open.I reckon that listed property is better to hold durong most times than any fixed deposit.
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barry_1
Super Contributor
By the way a newly listeed installment is RDFSIE.It's no use going to the detail share page as it is not listed there,It expires in June 2010.Warrant watch sent me an e-mail.i think there was one on Growthpoint as well,can't remember its code,i hold the actual units at the moment ,but am thinking of adding more by way of installments as it will qualify for all interest payments same as the PUT and it costs half the price!
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louisg
Super Contributor
Hi John. My sense is that the investment in our primary house is not as good as an investment as one might think once the sums have been calculated. One often hears how so and so bought for R1m and sold for R2m five years later. What they exclude are the transaction costs, bank fees, estate agent fees, taxes, renovation costs, maintenance, insurance, rates etc,etc. Add all those up and the time factor and one may come to a different conclusion. It's the difference between the FACT (R1million increase in value)and the TRUTH. I reckon one should be able to outperform property by investing in quality companies over the long term. They both have their advantages and disadvantages. Property benefits from long term gearing but has very high entry/exit costs (properties valued above R1 million). Whereas share investing benefits from much lower transaction costs but one will find it difficult to get high long term (> 5 years)loans at favorable rates. Certainly no 100% loans available here. On pure investment criteria, I reckon one should achieve better returns via long term share ownership assuming one has equal knowledge about the two asset classes. However, perhaps it's wise to at least own ones primary home, even if only for diversification purposes. After all, isn't ones home ones castle? Your thoughts John?
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louisg
Super Contributor
In the longer term, without a doubt.
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louisg
Super Contributor
Correction, should read "....difficult to get long term (> 5 years)loans at favorable rates".
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john_1
Super Contributor
Hozit LG.. Ya owning a home can be a costly affair..ask me as I am currently on a lunch break while I fix a leaking chimeney on my own home myself after having paid 2 others to do the job for me....I think that the lack of cost both at the purchase level and in the maintance does play a huge part in the long term returns.....however the higher than inflationary rental increase may erroded ones ability to save over the long term and this "Cost" should not be overlooked... I think the Key is the balence...all ones eggs should not be in your home..so buy cheap, live frugally and save...After all its not how you live that matters. Its if you die rich that counts.. Just ask Buffet.
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louisg
Super Contributor
When the accumulation of wealth is no longer of high social importance, there will be great changes in the code of morals. We shall be able to rid ourselves of many of the pseudo-moral principles which have hag-ridden us for two hundred years, by which we have exalted some of the most distasteful of human qualities into the position of the highest virtues. We shall be able to afford to dare to assess the money-motive at its true value. The love of money as a possession - as distinguished from the love of money as a means to the enjoyments and realities of life - will be recognised for what it is, a somewhat disgusting morbidity, one of those semi-criminal, semi-pathological propensities which one hands over with a shudder to the specialists in mental disease ... But beware! The time for all this is not yet. For at least another hundred years we must pretend to ourselves and to everyone that fair is foul and foul is fair; for foul is useful and fair is not. Avarice and usury and precaution must be our gods for a little longer still. For only they can lead us out of the tunnel of economic necessity into daylight. When the accumulation of wealth is no longer of high social importance, there will be great changes in the code of morals. - JM Keynes
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john_1
Super Contributor
LOL.. true I can't wait to rich enough to think that money does not matter...
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Not applicable
Well, my little Sunnyside flat cost me R30K six years ago. Costs, transfers and renovations did not exceed another R15K. That brings all costs to about R45K. Now, rental for that unit started in 2003 at about R1300. It's now R2400 per month, minus a levi of R500, minus bond costs, which are about R300. So, my rental has probably paid off the flat over the past 6 years, and I received an offer on the place a month or so ago for R270K. Beat that, property unit trusts. Property investment is all about individual opportunities out there.
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And deals like that one can be found today in Joburg's Berea.
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prancing_horse
Super Contributor
Vitorc,how many more have you bought.Bargains exist, but few and far between, the market will see to it.Having said that I agree property is a wealth creator, I've met many who have made a few million out of property,(not residential,as a house or home is a neccessary "evil"), industrial, commercial, and agricultural.Aint met any who made millions buying shares, only ones I know are friends who have listed companies.The secret is very simple.....gearing.Been there, done that.
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Got 2 in Sunnyside, 1 in the Joburg CBD. One good property deal = many years of profitable trading.
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Mr_S
Super Contributor
yes but then you look at the reputation of berea! what abt the risk of it turning into the next hillbrow? this is highly likely as more and more people from hillbrow look to spread their wings...
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