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Markets looking to be heading south?

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Penny_Pincher
Super Contributor
I notice on the S&P500 futures an imminent crossover between the 89 and 50 MA's. Both looking to be heading south. This charts indicate this to have happened previously in March 2001 and May 2008 with the consequences known. Not trying to call a top but if you accept markets work in cycles, that rounded top seems to be getting rounder and rounder.
28 REPLIES 28
Galuc
Super Contributor
All my alerts have been triggered the last couple of weeks, even my long term portfolio, I have my finger on the trigger! That monthly alsi chart is not looking good. Cash, me thinks
Not applicable
I am a great believer in technical analysis and incorporate it into both my investment and trading strategies. Repetitive patterns are the hallmark of technical analysis, but I believe they have a shelf life. Looking at sentiment over a 4-6 month view is fine but a huge amount of influence comes into play over periods longer than that. To compare patterns now to the patterns of 2007-2008 is illogical. There were a series of external events that catapulted us back then. What Nassim Talieb calls outlier events - black swans - that simply can't be predicted or forecasted. it is their very nature - they catch everyone unawares. Technical analysis can only determine, with a degree of accuracy, how the market reacts to such events, but to think you can use it to forecast them is crazy
THRESHOLD
Super Contributor
Often these so called "black swan events" are more of a known unknown if you know what I mean; and the market begins to reflect this. That said, I agree that these chart patterns are only good when they work (sic.) In my experience they quickly undo an investment portfolio if you pay them too much heed. Over time - quality shares go up - more than that I don't pretend to know. That is why I am such an uncomfortable "shorter" - I would rather just stand aside and play the "pick a bottom" game.
SimonPB
Valued Contributor
skaap, at least it not a chart from the 20's that being referenced ..
Russ
Super Contributor
Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it!
THRESHOLD
Super Contributor
What I particularly love is when we are told be some talking head "I've been warning, I've been warning, I've been warning..." Eventually - after 7 years - the market tanks - and said talking head crows over his prescience. Stuck clocks and twice a day and things like that... YES - the market will crash and YES the market will surge!
Penny_Pincher
Super Contributor
It amazes me how certain commentators contradict themselves as the situation/events unfold. Much like economists....always the qualifications for why things went wrong.What is a chart?....merely a reflection of the price the "intelligent" money is prepared to pay for a security over a selected time period. If it rises the intelligent money is prepared to pay more, if it falls the converse is true. Or is the buy and forget strategy not such a bad strategy after all? it is clear to one should formulate your own strategies and, follow the intelligent money and forget the "noise" of the so-called commentators.
THRESHOLD
Super Contributor
I have learned that it is always the same yet always different this time.
SimonPB
Valued Contributor
Penny_Pincher
Super Contributor
Intelligent Money = the market (not the individual player in that market) ie. the sumtotal of all players in that market that either drive a price up or down over a given period of time (as reflected in a chart, moving avg. etc). What do you define as trade the price?
SimonPB
Valued Contributor
that nothing else matter except price ..
Penny_Pincher
Super Contributor
Quite frankly I don't understand what you are trying to say. You are giving me your opinion not defining what trading price means. In my view there is no point in chasing after a price if you do not know where that price (the fears, greed or genuine belief in the underlying fundamentals)of the participants in the price setting process, is heading over time ie. the momentum or trend as reflected in MA(s) or some other indicator(s). That trend can start afar back and be refined and broken up into smaller pieces (fractals if you like). To me it is trying to stay in the "rhythm" of the market. A concept I am struggling with.
Not applicable
Penny Pincher - you have your definitions wrong. Smart / Intelligent money refers to the investments made by those with 'expert knowledge' of the industry. i.e. funds that have dozens of analysts in their employ and who theoretically have an inside lane. Now the problem is that you will never know when their appetite for a stock dissipates and they stop buying. Then there is noise. Bits and pieces of random information that will influence the markets. But if there are 100k people buying and selling - each will have their own interpretation of that news. So again, you can't predict the outcome. The only truth out there is the price action. Now when we say trade the price, it really means ignore everything else and watch how the price behaves. Trends, averages, candlesticks, support, resistance, etc - this is all part of trading the price.
Penny_Pincher
Super Contributor
Skaaptjop, you know as well as I do those analysts with the inside lane constitute at least 90% of the trading volume in a particular market and essentially set the trend, thus they are the "market" for all intent and purpose. Thank you for being specific on the trading the price issue but that is essentially what most if not all TA practitioners do in some way or another. The question is however whether one believes in looking at repetitive cycles over longer time periods or not, not specifically for specific trades or investments but to determine the general medium to longer term mindset/sentiment ie. is it time for being cautious or more aggressive for that matter. Its not about predicting a "black swan" event or a market crash for that matter but perhaps to take the foot of the accelerator for a while. I believe the price (in it's trend) gives us those tell tale signs and they seem to repeat themselves.
Rams
Super Contributor
Trends, averages, candlesticks, support, resistance, etc - this is all part of trading the price. Skaap, that is not correct...
Not applicable
Point 1, the analysts might represent 90% of the market, but it doesn't mean they are aligned in their thinking. And now the more important point -you being uncertain as to whether to go long or short. Well, this is what systems are for. Market movements are random. This is a fact. But within those random movements, there are patterns, and their is bias. The trick, as a trader, is to look for the patterns that you are going to act on - and execute them - every time, without thought. You need a trigger. Some traders, like me, are discretionary in their triggers. Others, like Simon, are purely mechanical. You have to find what works for you, and you need to accept that you will be wrong 30%-60% of the time, depending on your system and your risk / reward ratio. Now, my system, I am bearish, and will remain so as long as gold is rallying and markets are stuck in their bear flags, etc. Now yesterday's price action (exhaustion move) has changed the short term view for me - I think we are going up - to the middle of the Jan and Feb's noisy mess. Then I will wait for a renewed selling pressure / exhaustion move.
SimonPB
Valued Contributor
trading the price means ignore everything .. no asking where it's going, why is it down or up, no news no nothing .. just watch price, accept it as the only truth that exists and trade what you see not what you think
Penny_Pincher
Super Contributor
Very interesting viewpoints. Simon makes an absolute statement ie. ONLY follow the price that's all that matters....I only ask in relation to what? Skaaptjop says to be able to follow the price you need a point of reference ie. some sort of tool to guide you for eg. a trend after the random price movement has occurred. Rams is saying it is incorrect to imply that the tools he mentioned is applicable to following the price. Hell, clearly 3 very knowledgeable scholars on the subject, yet I am still none the wiser, or is this all part of discovering one's "holy grail"?